Gary DeVaney: Hi Pastor Thor. I didn't share all our exchanges but I will
share this exchange with all our panel-members.
THOR: Thank you.
G: I take issue with Jesus in Luke 19:27 "And, as for those who would not
have Me be King over them, bring them before Me and slay them." And Revelation 2:23 where Jesus said that He would also kill
the harlot's children. Jesus Christ lost me due to C&Vs like these.
T: If God does the same it is not wrong because He created them, He keeps
them in existence for as long as He likes, and when He is done with them for whatever reason or no reason at all, He ends
G: Is this your response to Jesus saying: And, as for those who would not
have Me be King over them, bring them before Me and slay them? And that Jesus would also kill the Harlot's children?
G: Wow! Even some of our panel-members try to deny that Jesus referred to
Himself in Luke 19:27. You are one stand-up pastor!
G: Parents create children. According to this model, to be God-like, they
would have the same murderous right and some insane, God supporting parents have murdered their kids as a result. Some encourage
their children to be cannon-fodder in war today. When their child is killed, some have said that they wish they had more children
to sacrifice for their insane President and their heinous God. The Judeo-Christian God and the Koran Allah have provided a
pretty sick world - don'tcha think? The Judeo-Christian God is the same murderous character as the insane Allah of the Koran.
But - you knew that.
THOR: I do not agree that parents create children and therefore with anything
you say that follows from that. I'm sorry to disappoint you but I am more ignorant than you realize. I do not know that Allah
G: Yes. Both the Judeo-Christian God and the Allah of Islam are the God
of Abraham. Isaac and Ishmael are the Judeo-Christian and the Islamic branches. Abraham is "the father" of all three religions.
T: I agree that the world is sick but I disagree as to the cause. By the
way what do you think is the cure to the world's sickness?
G: I am glad you asked, Pastor Thor! I view the first step is to retire
the Bible / Koran and their God / Allah to the Smithsonian Institute Library and like institutions as the primary horrendous
models for mankind's murderous history. All religions should be retired. Humanist philosophy that respects human life should
be promoted to influence and establish just laws, ethics and the legal models for humanity. The enforcement of equal, just
laws should replace the blackmailing superstition of the past that controls the evil, the bias and the murderous lawmakers
of the World today.
T: In fact, without God to reveal to us the possibility of eternal life
we would have no idea that death was an evil thing at all. It would just be something we did not like.
G: Jesus brought Hell to His loyal Christians - didn't He? Nice gift - as
the Torah Hebrews had no Hell. The Hebrew's Torah documentation was fundamentally dust to dust - wasn't it? Superstition later
promoted that a supernatural, all seeing soul-executioner would eternally-torture those who did not subordinate, grovel, worship
and kiss buttocks any who assumed a God-fearing position of authority over them.
G: You alluded that death is an evil thing - yet it is God who does all
the killing. Logic would figure that the Biblical God is evil to human beings just as Jesus would be if you don't let Him
be your King. Pardon me, Sir Thor, but I personally don't support or care to be around documented tyrants like that. I am
a retired Army officer so I know that old, ancient murderous mind-set and agenda very well. President George W. Bush, who
claims that God told him to attack Iraq, has no conscience about the half-million human beings that he has had killed - so
far. It is the obedient, submissive mind-set support of God that serves Bush and those like him. The worship of the heinous
Biblical God is how President George W. Bush gets away with his illegal murders. Bush breaks international and domestic laws
just as the Biblical God constantly broke His Own "sacred laws" throughout the Old Testament. Our Presidents operate as God
does by claiming to be above any laws documented. God and other "assumed authorities" are the "sacred models" that prove to
be the most "evil" in our World. No "Satan" influences Bush's evil. In reality, clergy promoted God does it all.
THOR: I do not want to have this theological discussion with you but feel
somewhat obligated to continue it, at least for a little while, out of gratitude for your helpfulness and because I did, after
all, start it.
G: I know and I don't blame you. It is difficult dueling with Zorro. (Joke!)
You see, Thor, Biblical debate is so much easier for us panel-members - as most of us have no God or anything we view Biblically
"sacred" to defend. I personally like your manner as you don't try to authoritatively talk-down and waste our time by preaching
and you do try to address our C&V issues.
T: I feel no obligation whatsoever to discuss politics with you.
G: I know. It really strikes home when one can see a true reason that God
and His insane C&V laws are promoted so that Christians will lay down for heinous, God-like presidents to have their way,
sacrificing us, without our complaint. Standing up to a U.S. President is almost as blasphemous to most believers as standing
up against the Biblical God. God and religion is necessary to create and maintain the subordination of sacrificial soldiers
by this ancient and hypnotic vehicle. I know that seeing this agenda is not comfortable for those who promote the agenda -
as clergy must. Your job, as clergy, is to promote and maintain this obedient, life-stealing hypnosis. How does it feel to
be responsible for and to promote this life-trashing agenda? The wealth of the most successful clergy is well documented.
The US government pays well for those successful clergy's services to brain-wash and subordinate the peasants. Falwell and
Robertson, et al, have had incomes and estates that wanna-be clergy would die for. Pastor Thor, have you encouraged anyone
to NOT go kill people in Iraq? Did you feel pride and accomplishment when that zealous, young, believing, God-fearing soldier
came back in a US flag-draped box? If you could, would you send him or her over to Iraq for a second time - to kill and die
again? Would you? What is a decent conscience and do you have one? Explain, please.
T: I did allude to death as an evil thing but you apparently did not notice
the context of my comment. The point was that without God to tell us about evil, death would just be an unpleasant fact of
G: I understand - and I accept your comment. The thing that God and Jesus,
fictional or not, proceeded to do was to introduce Hell so to blackmail their loyal subjects to obey their "fictitious God
authority" and evil men's "assumed authority" in fear of eternal-torment. The "unpleasant fact" of mere death is tough - but
it is so much easier to deal with than the heinous model of eternal-torment. Wouldn't you agree?
T: While we do now have an idea that death is evil, it is really only evil
by association. Death is the consequence of our own evil it is not in, and of itself, evil.
G: You just again described the core and blackmail of the God / obedience
T: These issues fit into my category of "the old problem of evil." I believe
you already know that. I'm seeking to discover new categories, not engage in endless debate.
G: My 25 years of developing and debating "The God Murders" that is on my
web site reminds me that these 2 C&V issues concerning Jesus are the ones clergy and layman alike try to avoid most. What
new or more important C&V issues can the non-changing Bible produce for you? The C&Vs won't go away and they don't
change. Most of us, on the panel, view that the Bible says what It means and means what It says. People love to spin them
to protect God and try to make the Biblical God look good - but the C&Vs don't change and stubbornly won't go away. Knowing
what the Biblical God is truly like by His documented C&V deeds, how can anyone with a conscience believe in, support,
promote and finance this insane Character - fictional or not?
THOR: I'm sorry. I need some explanation here. What are C&Vs?
G: LOL! Sorry. C&V is Chapter & Verse. C&Vs are what we on the
panel focus on, address, and take issue with. If it isn't a debate on Biblical C&V, most of Dennis' panel aren't much
T: It would be great if you could hold this down to just two issues! I gather
one is the problem of evil. I'm working on a little paper for ya'll about that. Maybe I am being dense, but what is the other
G: Gee Thor, I don't know your 2 issues (oops, 1 was evil) - as my C&V
2 issues of Luke 19:27 and Revelation 2:23 were clearly stated. Evil was not an issue that I initially addressed - except
for how assumed and temporary authorities - like insane Presidents - generate illegal and evil deeds through their projected
God-fearing behaviors. Again, I view that the historical purpose for God and His superstitious religions is for "assumed authorities"
to have their way over superstitious, hypnotized, brainwashed, mind-set and legally blinded human beings. Most of their consciences
have died. You have to have a decent conscience to know right from wrong. Would you have Iraq attack the US as the US attacked
Iraq, Pastor Thor?
If your answer is yes - you are insane. If your answer is no - we,
the USA, are wrong.
T: If you are not responding to my request for help what is your motive
in responding to me?
G: A panel that I participate on is with my good friend C. Dennis McKinsey.
His 2 books are the best on Earth, to my knowledge, to point out Biblical errors, inconstancies and contradictions. Judeo-Christian
clergy would be well-equipped to have the knowledge those books contain. Although, I view that most clergy would no longer
be clergy if they truly learned the C&V content of those books. I've been watching your mostly "on topic" responses to
Dennis and other panel members. Hang in with us Pastor Thor as you are more interesting, courteous, courageous and "on topic"
than most clergy who address us. Most clergy just preach, threaten, condemn, and then cut and run. You have not done much of
that. I sincerely congratulate you for that.
THOR: I am chagrined that your flattery actually works with me. I'll hang
a bit longer. If you are not going to explain your motives or goals can you give me some idea how to recognize the end of
G: Sir Thor, we, on the panel, are not bad or evil people. I've personally
never spent a night in jail. Most of us truly appreciate your debate and your time. We are on a crusade for the truth of what
the Bible C&Vs (Chapters & Verses) honestly and actually say and what they mean as written.
You, in good conscience, can't fault us for that - can you Pastor Thor?
Thor: You eviscerated my apology to someone else. What am I supposed
G: You admitted to "sarcasm" when honest debate concerning serious subjects
(charges against the Bible and its God) is requested.
T: What questions have you asked that I did not answer? I do not answer
false dichotomies in the form of a "yes" and "no" question whose answer is something other than "yes" or "no." I do not
answer other kinds of loaded questions. I will be not be manipulated into stepping on your verbal land mines.
G: "Verbal land mines"! Then debate is superficial to you. Answering
specific questions gets to the bottom line of an issue.
These "land mines" that you attempt to avoid often gets zealous believes
to actually admit that they know God creates evil.
Then fewer believers actually admit that they know God really is evil
And then, some believers blow-up completely on these "verbal land mines"
by admitting that they support, promote and finance this evil God - and some actually become aware that they, as
conformed believers, are really evil themselves - and they hope nobody likes it.
Yes, Sir Thor, these are the ultimate "verbal land mines" that you
try to avoid.
Due to your endurance and capacity in debating the panel, Sir Thor, I view
you are exceptional.
T: I do not wear white armor. I do not believe I am responsible
for correcting all the wrongs in the world.
G: I claim the Bible is wrong by what is written C&V and you being
clergy, it is not obvious why you don't respond to it's wrongs.
T: I am not responsible for reviewing and correcting the contents of billions
of web pages.
G: Then, being a clergy, you are claiming that the Bible's moral, legal
and technical wrongs that are taken issue with are not your concern? Why not be honest and tell that to your congregation?
T: I have my own research interests. I can not imagine why you would
think It proper to demand that I abandon them in favor of looking at your web site.
G: At this level of debate it's kinda like "Dueling with Zorro" - isn't
it? Most believers stick their sword in the sand and walk away - after a farewell "Eternal Damnation" threat - that is. Now,
do you want to take on The God Murders or have you lost your sword? And, don't claim that I am angry. I'm not angry. I'm just
geared for some specific topics that others seem to back off from. I am not religiously or politically correct. I don't
do obedience and I take issue with bad characters where ever they show up. The air is thin here and I'm somewhat alone
- but it's the level of debate that I'm personally comfortable with. My web site drew 6,882 visitors and 25,992 hits in June.
What is posted there C&V must be of some interest. And, like Dennis, my time is limited as I respond to numerous
This panel's interest is the Bible and its God. Dennis, and I have web sites
that take the Bible apart. Typically, as Bart said, you are only interested in topics that support your preaching - not
T: Your web site like your e-mails is full of exegetical and logical fallacies.
G: "Critical explanation / logical fallacies"? Here, again, you make claims
that that you don't produce evidence of. The only thing that is illogical on my web site is the Bible C&Vs that I take
T: When I point them out in our correspondence you neither acknowledge them
G: Not so, Sir Thor. Like my response to your statement right here, I address
each point you make - whereby you do not.
At the end of each page on my site I ask for corrections and that if something
I wrote proved to be in error, I would correct it. You have not once submitted one correction, have you?
T: Why would I want to waste my time on someone who can not or will not
G: Learning does not occur until there is a change of behavior. Are you
sure your agenda is to have me "learn" from you or is your agenda to "stop me from doing what I do". Is your agenda to
convert my will to serve this heinous monster / tyrant of a God?
My web site does not major in minor issues. It takes on the issues that
"The Biblical God is not a good God and the Bible is not a good model for
It is time for the Bible and its God to be retired to the Smithsonian Institute
Library as the worst model in the history of humanity.
Many clergy claim to serve God - but only in an advisory capacity.
To be God's defense attorney, clergy proves to be virtually unarmed.
Regards, Gary DeVaney
What one person, who you know, would be impacted if sent to this
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