Gary had written: A believer cannot question what he believes. If he did,
he would prove not to believe. So, once committed to belief, the power for the believer to question God or the
Bible is gone.
PT wrote: Or maybe it's because of the Holy Spirit. Maybe you should look
at the passages and really think about what it's saying.
G: What Holy Spirit? "Thought" is the most supernatural or spiritual
quality that human beings have. Outside of "thought" (imagination / memory / creativity), there's no evidence of
any Holy Spirit or any thing else that can be considered "supernatural". Produce some thing that you identify to be "supernatural".
In reality, you can not and you will not. You too can walk trough walls - in your imagination, only.
PT: To me it appears as though your site appeals to emotion too much...
G: "Emotions" (do wants / don't wants and their intensities) are covered
on "The Authority Addiction" page @
Emotions assist thoughts to be remembered. If you attach a feeling
to a thought with some emotional intensity, chances are, memory will take place. Conversely, if you don't attach a feeling
to a thought, with some intensity, memory probably will not take place.
PT: ...it's as if you want to find something wrong with God.
G: LOL! I see that not much gets past you. Did you browse "The God Murders"
and "God's Evil Deeds" to figure that out?
G: In reality, should you or I or anyone else, fight to live,
we do not give God permission to take our lives - do we? In fact, if someone is terminally ill and struggles to
survive, isn't that person actively defying God's "will" to kill them? If this were true, wouldn't God consider life-saving
doctors and medicine to be evil? Some Christian Scientists have fanatically supported that perspective and have
allowed their sick or injured children to die without medical care.
PT: It's according to God's divine plan, right now he doesn't want us to
die. So we live and he gives us the ability to make choices of how to live our life. Nonetheless if God thinks that our
time is up then our time is up.
G: Yes. However, according to Christian dogma, on "Judgment Day", if you
fail God's divine test, you will suffer "Eternal Torment". "Eternal Torment" is an overkill sentence. That sentence certainly
does not fit the crime. Even if an person should commit a full life of crime, which nobody does, he or she
should not be punished and tormented for all eternity. This God is a tyrant and a monster to have such a "divine plan"
put into existence. People, who make other people miserable because they did not live up to their specific expectations, follow
this ugly model. And we wonder why people cannot get along and why the world is such a mess.
G: Was Satan ever documented, C&V, to kill anyone in the Bible? Not
really. But if you think so, was God behind Satan's killing them? God did have Bible documented "Death Angels" that
He used to murder masses of human beings.
PT: It's in the book of Job. Yeah, I guess you could say that God was behind
it, nonetheless you just wanted a time when Satan kills right? You should be aware he killed many people spiritually.
G: Where does the Bible document, C&V, that Satan killed people
spiritually? God was guilty and God would be tried for the murders of Job's children and servants. Again, those
murders fulfilled God's agenda to show Satan Who was right and who was wrong. Satan, and the other "Death Angels" never
did any murdering, as documented Bible C&V, on their own - did they?
PT: This will take a while to explain...
G: I will devote some time.
PT: God created Adam and Eve in His image. This means that they were not
created as automatons, but had free will.
G: If you tempt an innocent child with candy, how much "free-will"
does the infant have? If just one human being on Earth truly has "free-will", God is not in control. If God does not
change, as Biblically documented, then God, Himself, has no free-will.
(God does change often. The Bible lies.)
PT: He created them therefore, with the ability to follow Him, or not to.
G: Hummm, did you just allude that God created us with the ability
to not obey? And then, God gives us "Eternal Torment" if we choose not to obey? That is
a totally insane agenda! Even 1/3rd of the Angels in Heaven didn't follow or obey God. Obviously, this God isn't well
liked by many in Heaven or on Earth.
PT: What good would it be, if God created us as automatons, programmed to
follow God, and to never stray from that program?
G: What? What good would it be? That would save billions of souls from Eternal
Torment. Would that be good in your value system? That some souls don't follow God and are given the sentence
of Eternal Torment does seem to fulfill "God's pleasure". That is the reality, according to scripture, isn't it?
PT: Could we then really love God? No. Our love would not be authentic.
BUT, God created us with the choice.
G: God is the most miserable, tyrannical, jealous, murderous and angry character
in the entire Bible. Can you name any other Biblical character who is more so? Knowing what this God has done, anyone
who would passionately love, promote, support and finance a character like this God is insane. They are certainly afraid that
this God will send them into Eternal Torment if they don't. I personally choose to not be around this character, groveling,
worshipping and serving Him for eternity - singing His praises minute after minute. Noooooo, thank you.
PT: Same with Adam and Eve. They were created without iniquity, as Satan
once was. However, they had free-will, which meant, they could stop fellowshipping with God, whenever they wanted.
G: If an inventor builds something that doesn't work right, it is the inventor's
fault - isn't it? How can you correctly blame the thing that he or she invented?
PT: When Satan, and later, Adam and Eve choose to worship themselves, (When
did they ever do that?) instead of the one true ever-loving God, they created iniquity within themselves. God created
Satan, Adam, and Eve without iniquity, but, since they had free will, they had the ability to create iniquity within themselves,
through their decisions. This is what happened.
G: Ergo, God was a flawed Creator to allow such a flaw. Check out
my page: "Samantha" @
It is "relative" to this issue.
G: Jesus claimed not to change a jot of the Hebrew scripture - although
He was guilty of it. That's on the "Jesus' Sins" page.
PT: Are you talking about Matthew 5:17? Because Jesus only spoke about certain
laws. The laws in the Old Testament can be divided into three parts. The moral and civil parts were specific for Israel and
for a certain time. Jesus refers here to the moral law, i.e. the Ten Commandments, which is given to us all, and lasts till
the end of time.
G: Ask any Rabbi ("The O.T. is the book of the Jew's that Christians
believe in" - according to comedian Lewis Black) and the Rabbi will instruct you that there are 613 commandments in the Torah.
Obeying some of those commandments will land you on death row - like - the Bible commands you to kill gay men, sons
that disobey and non-virgin girls.
PT: On if the earth will last forever, Jesus doesn't say here if the earth
will pass or not. He only says that no jot or tittle shall pass from the law until the earth has passed. Jesus doesn't make
a claim here about any passing of the earth or not. Just that the law will last as long as the earth will.
G: Sorry - this is a little confusing. The Bible states: Heaven and Earth
shall pass away...
G: There are Bible C&Vs that indicate God created evil.
PT: God did not create evil directly. Here's an example: You have a
child. The child grows up, and has a child. Did you procreate your child's child? Of course not. However, your child's child
would not have been in existence, without you having your child. So, indirectly, you procreated your grandchild. This is how
God created evil.
G: Ah, the working of inventive minds. God created Adam and Eve - who did
not obey God. God had to view Adam and Eve as His human children and His first-generation evil. God judges what He considers
to be evil and sends souls to Hell for eternity based on his tyrannical, egocentric value system. God's murderous
deeds, in the Bible, prove that God has a murderous value system. Any love for this God, if He is totally known and understood,
has to be based on fear. If believers love this God because He murders people and torments their souls
for eternity - then, those believers prove to be insane.
PT: God created Satan, who in the beginning had no iniquity in him,
until Satan used his God given free will to become evil. So, God created Satan, who at the beginning had no evil, but then
Satan created evil within. God indirectly created evil.
G: If the serpent in the Garden of Eden was Satan, then, God put this evil
"Satan" in the Garden with His newly created Adam and Eve - didn't He? What did this all-knowing, loving God know,
expect or predict would happen? Yet, if this God is all-knowing, this God would torment souls forever for things He already
knew were going to happen. Based on this Biblical scenario, either the Biblical God is a moron or God is a monster. Either
way, believers claim to love this heinous entity - fictitious or not. If all-knowing God knew that Adam and Eve would
fail, why did God create them? If God didn't know that Adam and Eve would fail, God is not all-knowing. Specifically,
if God did know, God proves to be a monster.
PT: However, you also have to see the context surrounding the word evil,
when mentioned in the Bible. Often 'evil' just means negativity, punishment, anger, etc. At some points in the Bible, God
is said to have those reactions to certain sins His people did.
G: Did God ever react to the sins His people did? God made His "chosen
people" slaughter other people so to steal their lands and when they didn't totally obey, God had them defeated and taken
into slavery. Where do I sign up!
PT: The modern bible is not inerrant. Why do you think it is? Why
does it matter so much?
G: LOL! Why does it matter so much? Because believers believe in the Bible.
They support it and promote it. Could that be why it matters so much? Anyone can go to C. Dennis McKinsey's "Biblical
Errancy" web site to see all the Biblical errors @
G: Obedience is the reason God punishes and murders people. We all agree
to that. Enemy combatants in Iraq refuse to obey Bush - so he kills them. Doesn't make it right, does it? This has been humanity's
legacy due to this murderous God model.
PT: There's a big difference between Bush and God. God knows people's hearts,
gave them a few chances to change, and he has to deal with people who make human sacrifices for false Gods.
G: God obviously did NOT know the hearts of Adam and Eve - did He?
If God truly knew the hearts of Adam and Eve, He set them up for their fall. Didn't He? Then God punished all humanity
throughout history for being sinful - because of Adam and Eve? What a God!
Here are a couple examples from the Ezekiel page:
Ezekiel 20:8-41 God said: (Israel) rebelled against Me and refused to listen
to Me. They did not abandon the idols of Egypt. I gave them My statutes and Ordinances. They rebelled against Me. I thought
to put an end to them. I swore not to bring them to the land I had given them. But, I looked at them with pity not wanting
to destroy them. But, their children rebelled against Me.
PT: I wish I knew which version of the bible you were using and where exactly
to read this but anyway I think you're talking about Ezekiel 20:26.
Ezekiel 20:26 I let them become defiled through their gifts--the sacrifice
of every firstborn --that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.
But this is not a case of endorsing human sacrifice, but a case of God giving
rebellious peoples what they want and deserve by giving them their "freedom".
G: God said here: I let them .... sacrifice their firstborn, didn't He?
Do you think that the innocent first-born babies appreciated the fact that their loving God gave their parents the freedom
to sacrifice them?
Regards,
Gary DeVaney
