Gary had said:

Hi L. Thanks for your input. It is one of the wisest perspectives I've seen to get God off on murder charges. Our President George W. Bush is counting on this kind of defense to clear him of international crimes and mass-murder. According to the Bible, God appointed him, you know. I'll share this exchange with our panel.

Regards, Gary DeVaney

L asked: Where in the Bible is GWB appointed by “God” ??  This I have to see!

L

Gary's answer: In the Bible-

Romans 13:1-7 Let every person be subject to governing authorities. God has appointed those who exist in authority. Rulers are only a terror to your bad conduct. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Do what is good and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your own good. If you do wrong, be afraid. He does not wear his weapon for show. He is a servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrong-doer. For the same reason, you must also pay taxes, respect and honor to all who are due.

This is a great Biblical source as to the why and how this wrathful God was created by tyrants. This same Biblical God is still used today as a tool, a weapon to greedily oppress, blackmail, subordinate, manipulate, enslave, and to extort the lives from God-fearing, naïve believers.

Regards,

Gary DeVaney

Hi Gary, We will just have to disagree on what Paul meant in Romans 13.

G: Hi L. Ok.

L: True, none of what happened to Jesus would have happened if the Jews had not arrested him, but that misses the entire point under discussion.  My point was that Paul was not in league with the civil rulers of his day (Roman or otherwise) and would not have written Romans 13 regarding them.  Civil rulers are not the “ministers” of God. 

G: Romans 13:1-7 Let every person be subject to governing authorities. God has appointed those who exist in authority. Rulers are only a terror to your bad conduct.

"Governing authorities" are civil rulers, L. It says:"Those who exist in authority / rulers". Paul, a Roman citizen and a Benjamite Jew, described Governing authorities and civil rulers here - not Jewish religious leaders or ministers of God.

L: Only God’s called men in the church are that. Even most of them are pretenders. Civil rulers in Rom. 13? Sorry Gary, no way!

G: Again, it appears that we will just have to agree to disagree.

L: I am not sure why you mention “Augustus”, I did not. 

G: Correct. I mentioned Augustus. I am participating in an intellectual dialog. I am not subject to an authoritative lecture.

L: I do not know if Augustus was personally responsible for persecuting Christians per se, but Rome did not tolerate any disturbance in the empire and the Christian church was a diametrically opposed organization to the structure of Roman culture and philosophy; I.e. Christians would not worship the emperor, etc…

G: Augustus was the tyrant at the time (like George W. Bush is now) and the Bible says nothing of his participation in Jesus' crucifixion. He was the over-all governing authority. It says that God has appointed those who exist in authority. Rulers are only a terror to your bad conduct.  Ergo, It qualifies. There is no Biblical C&V that says Augustus even knew of Jesus Christ.

L: You ask, “like George Bush?”  George seems to be a recurring theme with you.  I have never brought him up and I don't think he is “God’s man” any more that Billy Boy Clinton was.  I care not for either and I don't know why you keep mentioning him.  It seems irrelevant to me because (as I said earlier) I think Satan has a lot more to do with civil rulers in this present age than God does (Luke 4:5, 6). 

G: Thanks for bringing that up, L. Much, if you've noticed, of my site is dedicated to our tyrannical, murderous, god-like President George W. Bush. "Praying is obeying" and George W. Bush wants you and all Christians on your knees begging God for a "sign" so that Bush, an "assumed" authority, can easily step-in and be zealously obeyed by these God-fearing sheeple. So far, it's worked like a charm for him - hasn't it?

L: You (Gary) said: “The God of the Bible is NOT a good God and the Bible is NOT a good model for humanity.”

G: I certainly did, Sir L.

L: I might ask a Clinton-like question:  “It depends on what the meaning of “good” is. 

G: "GOOD": Beneficial, the right thing to do, "to not do to others what you would not want done to you" - for starters. That's really a good question, L, because in this "Christian Nation" 1 out of every 137 Christians are incarcerated in the US prison system and, obviously, they did not know the definition of "Good". L, outside of the "Myth of Creation", can you list C&V what the Biblical God did "GOOD" for someone without hurting someone else? I'm betting you won't list anything - or that it would be a short list. Whatcha think?

L: I can only say that if you feel this way it is because you are not on His side and do not have long term view of what God is really doing. 

G: Hummm. You suggest that I'm not on the Biblical God's or George W. Bush's side. Hummm.

1. I was not on God's side when He murdered all the first born babies of Egypt - just to let everybody know who was God around there.

2. I was not on God's side when He ordered the murdering and destruction of scores of cities in order to steal their lands.

3. I was not on God's side when He marched His {about 3 million} "chosen" (Torah notes) around the desert until they died to punish them for not murdering and stealing for the land that God "promised" them.

4. I am not on George W. Bush's side when he broke Constitutional law, US law, International law, and the Geneva convention laws to wage an illegal and imoral pre-emptive war on a country that could not defend itself. Bush did this so to control an area with the largest known world-oil-reserves. That oil is their's, L - not ours. If the USA can not compete, shame on us. The USA's action amounts to armed-theft of another country's goods. If you support that, you are an accomplice. We assume "might makes right" entitlement. That's seems popular among God-fearing believers. These zealous believers seem deeply committed to a "kill them all" mentality? They claim entitlement and demand not to be disobeyed nor disrespected! Right, L? Sig-heil!

It appears, L, that you side with God and Bush on these listed atrocities. Long term? Look at God's long murderous history. Look at the future by seeing what George W. Bush has forced the current and immediate US generations to face. Look at what the middle-east now has to face. Would you have killed those 1,000,000 Iraqis, L? Are they bad people and should die just because they don't believe like you? Do you personally feel "entitled" to what those dying and suffering Iraqis have? Whatcha think, L?

L: Some would say that thrusting a knife into the belly of child is a cruel act perpetrated upon the innocent; others (who know what is really happening) would understand that the surgeon’s scalpel is removing a life threatening tumor from the child’s liver and is ultimately going to save its life. 

G: Sell that scenario to the families and loved-ones of the 1,000,000 Iraqis that Bush has murdered and to the millions that he has injured. George W. Bush had Americans do to others what Americans would not want others to do to us. Didn't he? If your God ordered and approved of this atrocity, your God is as insane as Bush.

L: In regards to God, many atheists (and theists for that matter) are in the first category.  I feel you are criticizing something that you do not understand and actually know very little about. That does not necessarily make you a bad person, it does however, make you wrong. It, also, is not altogether your fault if God does not let you in on His secrets, that is up to Him.  I do feel your sincerity and I am of the opinion that your beliefs are at least from an honest heart.  I also understand that I could be the one who is wrong, but I (like you) am simply voicing my opinion of things the way I see them; nothing more.

G: L, I work with you on what you believe. Everybody learns at their own pace. Believing is always short of knowing. I'm always trying to learn so that I may know - not believe. My web site openly displays what I think, perceive and presume to know. I've not written "I believe" once on it. If you find something on my site that is in error, please send in the correction. If the error and its correction proves to be valid, I assure you it will be corrected and you will be sincerely thanked for finding and offering the correction. 

Sincerely

L

Regards,

Gary DeVaney

Dear Gary D.,

G: Hi L.

L: I cannot help noticing when reading your e-mails that you are not responding to me but to your own agenda.

G: I almost daily receive e-mails concerning the content of my web site. I am accustomed to responding to any debate on the site's content - which is my agenda. I have little time for much else.

L:  You don't really seem to be listening, only talking. 

G: I try to respond to each point of substance that the write-in posts. Even your's, L.

L: I, like you, am not subject to an authoritative lecture. 

G: Good. Because, I try even harder to recognize, analyze and respond to every point you post.

L: If you are an atheist, then obviously you cannot think that “god” appointed GWB.

G: Religious believers respond to the Bible's concept that: "Our leaders are to be respected and obeyed because God put them there over us." Of course, that's not true, nor real - it's just an another religious, authoritarian belief (and assumption of obedience) that logical, reasonable and realistic people have to put up with. When it comes to believer's expectations - outside of enforceable civil and criminal laws - I don't do obedience. 

L: I agree with you that God did not appoint “W”, I think I told you who I think is in charge of such things.

G: Satan? There is no evidence that Satan exists any more than does the Biblical God. The Book of Job, chapters 2-3, displays that the (fictitious) Satan character can do no more than what the (fictitious) God character allows him to. Doesn't it? God said to Satan: You enticed Me against him (Job). God took the "hit" on the murders of Job's children and servants and what happened to Job. And this was also Biblical C&V evidence that God was enticed / tempted by Satan. These Bible C&Vs, that stubbornly won't go away, prove that your Biblical God hasn't got much real character. And, this God / Character judges us? What hypocrisy!

L: In my opinion you are blaming God for the actions of others.

G: Na, the Bible uses C&Vs to explain what specifically God did throughout the Old Testament. You obviously did not absorb or probably did not get through "The God Murders". It appears that the strongest believers prove to be the weakest when trying to get completely through "The God Murders."

L: Perhaps you would like things better if Osama bin Laden were in charge.

G: Check out the official FBI wanted poster for Osama bin Laden. He is not wanted for 9-11. How do you account for or explain that, Sir L? After suddenly wanting to research that extremely important claim, when you find it valid, let me know your spin, Sir L.

 L: He would love to get his hands on all the atheists and lop off their Allah-disbelieving heads.  Ha ha…  I am not in love with “W” but your I don't think he has called for the demise of any significant number of Atheists lately.

G: Granted, in the middle-east and other Islamic countries, I would probably be dead due to my outspoken web site. That may eventually happen here. Come on. Don't get your hopes up! You'd miss me, L.

L: You said, “That oil is there's, L - not ours.”  Did you mean “That oil is theirs …not ours”? 

G: Gasp! Sorry, thanks for the correction. I'm so embarrassed. I have corrected it.

L: And by the way, are we “stealing” their oil?  I haven’t heard that and I cannot find any evidence to back up your remark. 

G: News flash: The US troops have killed 1,000,000 Iraqis in the conquest and occupation of Iraq. Nothing happens in Iraq's inter-workings - including its oil industry - without US consent.

L: It looks like to me that the oil coming out of Iraq is being sold by Iraqis and it seems to me that we are trying to give back the country to the people instead of the tyrant.

G: That suggests that the US murdered 1,000,000 Iraqis just to overthrow 1 man. That's kinda heavy-handed, illegal and immoral politics, isn't it? Saddam was once our "bastard"- remember? The US gave Saddam all the WMDs that he used on his Kurds and on Iran, didn't we? "The biggest, little discussed, reason that Saddam was "taken out" was because of the selling of Iraqi oil for Euro-dollars instead of selling Iraq's oil for US dollars. If Saddam had not done that, he would still be in power today": "Confessions of an Economic Hit-Man" by John Perkins. (Great book!) This is backed-up by statements made by our former head of the Federal Reserve Bank, Alan Greenspan, and some retired military Generals, officers, enlisted men and retired CIA operatives, who were in "hands-on" positions. 

L: Would you feel better if Uncle Saddam were back in power?  

G: Yes, because a million Iraqis, a few thousand Americans and some foreign allied troops would still be alive. Bush has killed many more Iraqis and US troops than Saddam. Shouldn't Bush go? Even General George Patton pissed-off President Harry S. Truman by deciding to leave the Emperor of Japan on the throne after Japan surrendered so to keep Japan politically together. It worked. Patton wisely prevented in post-war Japan the political fiasco that Iraq is going through.

 L: I am not sure who the oil belongs to, it seems that in the history of the world that the land belongs to he who can take it. 

G: Sorry L - but that is spoken like a true thief.

 L: I am not saying that is right,

G: Phew! I'm so glad. You had me worried for a nano-second.

L: I am saying that that is the way that it is, and if there is no God then the only law that exist is the law of the jungle “might makes right”.

G: I wrote a page on "Might Makes Right": http://WWW.thegodmurders.Com/id101.HTML There's no sense being redundant on this post when I've already done the work.

L: But, I know God exists, therefore I believe that “right makes might” and not the other way around.

G: You still support the Biblical God knowing that He ordered His "Chosen" to murder scores of cities so to steal their land? Sorry L - but that is spoken like one who has the heart of a true murderer and a thief. That's nothing new. That's just another example of what believing in the Biblical God does to the true character of believers.

L: As far as the 1^st born of the polytheistic Egyptians are concerned, I suppose you would have preferred that they should have been allowed to use the Hebrews as slaves forever! They were murdering, raping, abusing, and using them for centuries. 

G: Yes, slavery was condoned by God. Might made right determined as to who served who. Early America brought that Bible / God-approved slave-model to this land. It was the getting away from that God-model that helped eliminate legal slavery in this country.

L: I guess that was OK though.  How many of the Hebrew firstborns were killed by the Egyptians? Do you remember why Moses was put into a basket on the Nile? 

G: Yep. Always "in-control" God fought evil with more evil. The (evil) Bible orchestrated the Moses story so that God arranged for all those Hebrew children to die. Dare you say that God was NOT in control of these events?

 L: I say that if it took God going to war with the Egyptians and if it took killing their firstborn in that war to get Pharaoh to release the Hebrews, then war is war. 

G: LOL. You are conveniently forgetting that your "do-right" God forced Pharaoh to disobey him between each and every plague. God "hardened Pahraoh's heart" / made him disobey - 10 times.

Exodus: http://WWW.thegodmurders.Com/id29.HTML covers that in more detail than you'd like.

L: At least Pharaoh was warned beforehand and given a choice; that is more than he gave the poor crying Hebrew mothers when his soldiers came to take the firstborn of his slaves. All he would have had to do was to release the Hebrew slaves and he could have spared all his own firstborn. Pharaoh gave no such options to his slaves.  He and Egypt got what their slave driving asses deserved.

G: So, what you have proved here is that the Biblical God was just as evil as the earlier Pharaoh. And God took it out on people who had nothing to do with the earlier Pharaoh's decision to murder those Hebrew children.

L: I assume the “Sig-heil!” was included for prevocational purposes?  Pssssst… its not working.  Wasn’t Uncle Adolph supposed to be like the “Atheist-in-chief” or something? 

G: Sorry. Incorrect again, Sir L. Adolf Hitler was Catholic and most of his speeches included God in much the same way that Bush does. I can send you a few dozen of his speeches for your varification from my computer library - but only if you generate enough desire for the information to request those "God-inspired" speeches. 

L: It seems to me I read where he was a vegetarian atheist who couldn’t get it up and that the whole “Eva Braun” thing was just for show.

G: I agree that Hitler was a heinous, evil and a somewhat "unusual" piece of work. So is Bush! But, Bush is our bastard, right? NO! The Bush gang has got to go NOW before he does more damage to the USA and to the world!

L: Let’s see, something “good” God did?  Hmmmmmmm… Oh, I’ve got it!  He let you live another day. 

G: Yes! But, that appears to hurt believers. Next? Something that God did GOOD from God's diary, the Bible, please.

 L: He is verrrry patient…. Ha ha ha… ;-)  (now who is provoking who?) 

G: Do you have Bible C&V evidence of God being patient?

L: I guess if God doesn’t even exist then there is nothing either good or bad that He has done.

G: As predicted, that's a pretty short list, L. Are you sure that your God is the Biblical God? That sounds like your defining a human ego more than the Biblical God, concerning patience. Is it your patience that you feel is being tested? The difficulty you feel here is in the Biblical side of our debate, I pretty much stay on Bible C&V to prove my side of the debate - while you are winging it all over the place. But, then again, no believer can debate my selected Bible C&Vs on behalf of God and appear sane.

L: I agree with you 100% that much of the evil in the world can and should be laid at the feet of religion.

G: Amen! And the "God of Abraham" (Koran / Bible) is the foundation of most religious believers on planet Earth. That's your God, the "God of Abraham"- isn't it, L? It is also Islam's Allah.

L: I think that one of the places that we go a parting of the ways is that I do not believe that “God” is responsible for most of “religion”. I think “Old Nick” rules most of that too, unbeknownst to the deists who presume to represent Him.  They are no better than the religious Pharisees who crucified their own Messiah.

G: “Old Nick” is not mentioned C&V in any Bible I have. Who is this heinous entity? My friend Bart Floyd once asked: Throughout human history, how many gods have there been? The answer is obvious: "Almost one god for each human ego." Almost - because Atheists admit to having no god - just an ego.

L: I am hoping you are having another great day,

L

Thanks, L - you too.

Regards,

Gary DeVaney