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The "Good God" Challenge
I, Gary Devaney, for one, am curious how effectively you will address this
challenge.
I have "The God Murders" web site:
Often, at the beginning of my speaking engagements, my challenge
to the audience - and to all the audiences of the World is:
"Other than the myth of creation, can you list, by Bible Chapter and
Verse, whereby the Biblical God did something "good" for someone without hurting someone else."
If the Biblical God is so "good", let us all see how long your Bible C&V
list is.
I have a few Bible C&Vs listed whereby God did something "good" for
someone without hurting someone else - like allowing barren women to conceive. But, Who made these women, Sarah (Genesis 16:1
, 18:11, 21:10) Hannah (Judges 13:2-3) Elizabeth (Luke 1:5-57) barren in the first place? God did - to fulfill His personal
agendas. God also gave Solomon wisdom (1 Kings 3:9-14). Solomon used this "God-given wisdom" to take 700 wives
and 300 concubines for himself and to worship other gods before he died (1 Kings 11:3-4).
Hummm, maybe God's gift of wisdom to Solomon actually took because he did
end up worshipping other (maybe better) gods.
Accept my challenge. Let's see how many Bible C&V examples of "God being
good" you can come up with. Let's see how "good" you can prove the Biblical God to be - by C&V documentation.
Question: If the Biblical God is so "good" - why are believer's Bible C&V
lists so short - and weak in moral quality?
Regards,
Gary DeVaney
From T: Gary, thanks for your response, I really appreciate it.
Hi
T. Thank you for your kind and thoughtful reply. I'll share it with our panels.
Concerning your inquiry, I'm
only going to give you one example of God doing something good for someone without hurting anyone else, because if this example
doesn't satisfy you then nothing ever will. The verse I'll give you (one of many that could be cited which focus on
the glorious sacrifice of the Cross) is John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
G: The challenge was for a Bible C&V
verse that proved God did something "good" for someone without hurting someone else. Unless Jesus Christ stepped out of his
human body into His "transfigured body" as described @
http://WWW.thegodmurders.Com/id113.HTML then Jesus Christ was hurt
- which (God's agenda aside) certainly fails the challenge.
T: By this one sacrifice, God has done, is doing
and will continue doing ETERNAL GOOD to untold hundreds of millions of people around the world, myself included, by blessing
us with the gift of eternal life and innumerable other blessings that go with it.
G: Some claim that Jesus brought
Hell into the fate of humanity. If carried out as documented, that will hurt millions of souls for eternity following "Judgment-Day".
With "Eternal-Torment" the punishment cannot fit the crime. Ezekiel 28 and Matthew 10:26 display that if God judges us out
/ doesn't choose us, after "Judgment Day", we perish and that our soul is destroyed. John's Book of Revelation displays
the more clergy-favored "Eternal-Torment". The salvation by Jesus comes by the blackmail and extortion of total obedience
to God - or else. If you claim this to be "good", you have to admit many who don't make it will be hurt for eternity because
of God's "good" Eternal-Torment agenda. What if you found out that you were confused about your "salvation" and you didn't
make it? How would you view God's "good" Eternal Torment agenda then?
T: Now, you may say that God had
to hurt Jesus by doing this, but that would show a supreme lack of understanding of biblical truth.
G:
Are you saying that the "truth" is Jesus Christ was not hurt? Are you sure we are understanding the defining of "truth" here?
T:
God's Word consistently teaches that Jesus IS God (one verse: "In the beginning was the Word [Jesus], and the Word was
with God, and the Word was God," John 1:1). So God essentially sacrificed (hurt) Himself -- and only Himself -- by setting
aside His glory as the Second Person of the Triune God and lowering Himself to take on human flesh and carrying out this one
immeasurable, incomprehensible act of goodness.
G: If Jesus is God, we are reflecting on a severe case
of masochism. No wonder the Biblical God can inflict Eternal-Torment on human beings as He inflicted anguished pain upon Himself.
This might be a case of God saying: "I will do onto others what I have willingly done unto Myself. I have hurt Myself
- so, I am entitled to hurt you too. I, God, survived My few hours of torment - but, in your case, you will be in torment
for eternity. In My "perfect" value system, that is obviously fair, because, I say it's fair. You shalt worship Me, love Me,
serve Me, obey Me and repent to Me constantly during your lifetime so that I may select you to worship Me, love Me, serve
Me, and obey Me for eternity.
T: I must also say that your reasoning regarding barren women in the Bible is completely
flawed. Again, as I pointed out in my column, if you're going to debunk Christianity then you have to do it according
to its own claims (specifically, the immutable truth of God's Word, the Holy Bible).
G: Tom, Bible C&Vs
are the sources I used - and always use. What can be more the truth than the "Holy" Bible C&Vs I used. You do believe
those Bible C&Vs - don't you?
T: God's Word clearly reveals that all of the pain, suffering and death that
the world has ever known was caused not by God, but by man.
G: The builder / creator has no responsibility
for what He builds / creates? Some just can't be blinded with that "logic".
T: God created the world in
perfection but man rebelled and in so doing brought sin into the world, and with it all pain, suffering (including barrenness)
and death.
G: Obviously, God built man with a rebellious gene. You really can't have it both ways in reality.
Of course faith / fantasy does say and does claim much that reality can't concur with.
T: God is
now in the process of undoing OUR damage, and that's why Romans tells us even the created world awaits redemption (restoration)
at His return. Thus, God did good to every one of those women when He blessed them with children;
G: God's agenda
was to make those poor, miserable, begging and grovelling women barren in the first place. By the way, God is the most miserable
Character in the entire Bible. Can you think of one depicted to be more miserable throughout?
T: He did
good to Lazarus when He raised Him from the dead;
G: Only to die again.
T: He did good to
every person He cleansed of leprosy, healed of blindness and diseases, and so on.
G: Jesus refused a poor, non-Israelite,
woman to heal her sick daughter. His dialog was racist and He even referred to them as dogs.
From: http://WWW.thegodmurders.Com/id119.HTML
Matthew 15:22-28 A Canaanite woman asked Jesus to heal her daughter.
Jesus ignored her. His disciples asked Jesus to send her away. Jesus replied that He was only sent to the lost sheep of
Israel (The Jews?) Jesus then said: It is not right to take the food of the children and throw it to the dogs.
She appealed to Jesus: Please Lord, even the dogs eat the scraps that fall from their master’s table. Jesus healed
her daughter.
What? Did Jesus, in Matthew 15:26-27, refer to this woman and her poor,
sick daughter as "dogs"? Jesus rejected the woman because she wasn't an Isrealite / Jewish. Then, after the woman groveled
like a dog, Jesus healed her daughter. Does this documented model of Jesus require all, or at least some of us, to beg Him
to save us like groveling, begging dogs?
What defines the characteristics of a name-calling racist? Weren’t
Jesus’ initial comments to her those of a stubborn, name-calling racist? How did Jesus respond to the woman before she
outright begged Him? Are there self-admitted Christians who are stubborn, name-calling racists? Does this Jesus model inspire
Christian racism? I'll bet that today if Don Imus or any on-camera politician said that to a poor woman and her sick daughter,
they would be publicly condemned to be a name-calling racists.
T: He did good to Daniel when Daniel was thrown into the lions den by
an evil king and God shut the mouths of the lions,
G: God's set up that agenda to show His power to all involved.
This same God arranged for 42 children to be torn-apart by two she-bears. II Kings 2:23-24
T: He did good
to Joseph when Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers and imprisoned by a false accusation but God raised him up to
the right hand of the Egyptian ruler and used him to preserve the people of that day,
G: God's agenda was for
Joseph to suffer prison for years (that hurts) and then everybody suffered famine before any good came out of it for God's
chosen. That along with the killing of Egypt's firstborn later was all just to let everybody know who was God around there.
T:
He did good to Abraham when He fulfilled the promise of Isaac's birth supernaturally (long after Sarah was of child-bearing
age), and on and on and on, all without hurting anyone at all in any way.
G: Putting a knife to Isaac's throat
before being pulled off by an interceeding Angel is first-degree child-abuse. There is no mention of any more dialog between
Isaac and Abraham or between Sarah and Abraham after that heinous incident. They both probably had enough of good old Abe.
T:
My question to you is: How was God able to write so much of human history in advance in the pages of the Bible, by hundreds
and often thousands of years, and reveal so many scientific and other truths in Scripture long before these truths were "discovered"
by man? For more on this, read a couple other columns I wrote:
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57510
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58643
G: The Bible, as we know it, was mostly written from about 500
BC to 394 AD Much was plagerized from other religions and even Psalm 22 is "borrowed" when Jesus hung on the cross.
Other
Bible shockers / oddities:
Did you know that God was a divorcee? Jeremiah 3:8
How did King Herod-The-Great
(a historical figure) try to kill Jesus Christ as a baby if he died in 4 BC?
Did you know that Moses was a product
of incest. Exodus 6:20
If Jesus Christ is God and The Holy Spirit - then Jesus impregnated His Own mother to
produce Himself. If one truly believes in the Trinity, how could one have it any other way?
Did you know that
in Jesus Christ's bloodline / lineage, Tamar sold sex, Rahab was a Harlot, Ruth had sex before marriage, Bathsheba was an
adultress.
http://WWW.thegodmurders.Com/id147.HTML
Luke 19:27 Jesus Christ said to His disciples: "But those, mine
enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. KJV
What happened to Jesus' teaching to: "Love thy enemy?"
Luke 19:27 parallels the dogma: If you don't accept Jesus Christ as
your savior, you will suffer Eternal-Torment.
Obeying many or the Biblical God's 613 commandments today would
put a believer on death row.
Thank you so much, T. This was a fine exchange. Should you hit Las Vegas,
the beer is on me.
Keep in touch,
Regards,
Subject: Hitchens's challenge answered
http://WWW.worldnetdaily.Com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58944
Hi Mr. T
I see that you accepted a Christopher
Hitchens challenge: "Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made
or performed by a non-believer."
T, you wrote: He (Hitchens) obviously sees this challenge as the silver bullet
that finishes off any and all defenders of religious faith, boasting in the book how he's used it in debates with believers
across the country and is still waiting for someone to answer it. Hitchens exults: "As yet, I have had no takers."
T,
you then wrote: "Well, as someone who has written and argued in various forums over many years for the truth claims of the
Bible, I am more than willing – as a Christian – to take up the challenge."
I, Gary Devaney, for
one, am curious how you will address this challenge.
I have "The God Murders" web site:
http://WWW.thegodmurders.Com/id91.HTML
Often, at the beginning of my speaking engagements, my challenge
to the audience - and to all the audiences of the World is:
"Other than the myth of creation, can you list, by
Bible Chapter & Verse, whereby the Biblical God did something "good" for someone without hurting someone else."
If
the Biblical God is so "good", let's see how long your Bible C&V list is.
I have a few Bible C&Vs listed
whereby God did something "good" for someone without hurting someone else - like allowing barren women to conceive. But, who
made these women, Sarah (Genesis 16:1 , 18:11, 21:10) Hannah (Judges 13:2-3) Elizabeth (Luke 1:5-57) barren in the first place?
God did - to fulfill His personal agendas. God also gave Solomon wisdom (1 Kings 3:9-14).
Solomon used this "God-given
wisdom" to take 700 wives and 300 concubines for himself and to worship other gods before he died (1 Kings 11:3-4).
Hummm,
maybe God's gift of wisdom to Solomon actually took because he did end up worshipping other (maybe better) gods. Solomon broke
God's first commandment.
Accept my challenge. Let's see how many Bible C&V examples of "God being good" you
can come up with. Let's see how "good" you can prove the Biblical God to be - by Chapter & Verse documentation.
U.S. Prison & Religion
http://atheistblogger.com/2009/03/13/atheists-in-prison-what-are-the-facts/
About 1 out of every 137 US citizens are in the prison system.
Behold the Federal Bureau of Prison's statistics on religious affiliations
of inmates listed by the percentage of inmates per religion
category:
Response
Number
%
---------------------------- --------
Catholic
29,267 39.164%
Protestant
26,162 35.008%
Muslim 5,435
7.273%
American Indian
2,408
3.222%
Nation
1,734
2.320%
Rasta
1,485 1.987%
Jewish
1,325
1.773%
Church of Christ
1,303
1.744%
Pentecostal
1,093 1.463%
Moorish
1,066
1.426%
Buddhist
882
1.180%
Jehovah Witness
665
0.890%
Adventist
621
0.831%
Orthodox
375
0.502%
Mormon
298
0.399%
Scientology
190
0.254%
Atheist
156
0.209%
Hindu 119
0.159%
Santeria
117
0.157%
Sikh 14
0.019%
Bahai
9 0.012%
Krishna
7
0.009%
----------------------------
--------
Total Known Responses 74,731
100%
Question: If the Biblical God is so "good" - why are believer's
Bible C&V lists so short - and weak in moral quality?
Regards,
Gary DeVaney
Gary DeVaney's YouTube videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DmjuxqC1MI
Who do you know hasn't yet seen "The God Murders" website or "The
Shocking God" videos?
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