V HAD written these points (and I responded to them): I think I as a Christian just included in my responses to you how I could see the justness of (God) condemning Hitler.

 

G: But Vitac, IF Hitler, at the last minute, according to Christian dogma, could do what is necessary to be saved and forgiven, how JUST and FAIR is the penalty of Eternal Torment in condemning thinking / non-believing Atheists? I, for example, have never killed anyone and I've never spent a night in jail. But, because I don’t approve of and I do take issue with an insane Biblical God’s murderous rep-sheet, I face the same Eternal Torment as someone like an unsaved Adolf Hitler? What rational human being could consider that to be JUST and FAIR? Point blank, would you send us to Eternal Torment for JUSTLY taking issue with God’s heinous and insane rap-sheet? God's rap-sheet is documented throughout the Bible, C&V.  

 

V: On the other hand as for condemning atheist, the reason Christians hold that they are lost is simply because God's universal law is that all sins must have the punishments taken.

 

G: If worshiping Jesus amounts to paying a bribe for special favor, I do not find that to be JUST and FAIR. Do you?

 

V: Since atheist are just the same as every other human being, a sinner, that like all people they have punishments coming for their sins. If that atheist dies without the benefit of having Jesus having been counted as the punishment for his sins in his place, then that atheist, like all sinners in the same situation, while have to take their punishments for themselves.

 

G: Another great difference between my values and a Christian believer’s - I do not view it JUST and FAIR for another to pay for my sins, errors or mistakes. A Christian believer is trained to look to another or others to pay for their mistakes / sins. Can you not see that to be a severe mental / emotions / character flaw? It is delusional.

 

V: However the punishments for sins and the need for Jesus' intercession is not an Atheist issue, or a Jewish issue or a Buddhist issue, or an issue confined to any group. It is a universal issue of all humanity, that all are sinners and all need salvation from the punishments that are to be requited to them for their crimes.

 

G: That “international issue” is a bad model for humanity. Can you not see that?

G: So, Hitler could get a second chance with God by renouncing his former behavior?

V: That's the deal God is offering to humanity in general.

 

G: So, to do .000000001% bad compared to what Hitler did gains you the same JUST and FAIR Eternal Punishment? And, Hitler, last minute can just repent and go to Heaven? Sorry V, I don’t buy into that super-corrupt agenda and I do not respect the tyrannical author of that agenda - and I stand against the gullible, fearful believers who support, promote and finance such a tyrannical agenda.  Reality and sanity would claim that believers of such nonsense are dead wrong!

 

V: By presenting humanity with HOPE despite their admitted mistakes before God, God is using amnesty as a source of encouragement for them to reform and make the world a better and more loving place.

 

 G: Seriously V, look at the world and its ugly history. The wars - the tyranny - the greed - the murders - the pain. That’s the reality of this insane God’s pre-destined, super-sick, amnesty / salvation agenda. There is no supernatural God to sacrifice to. There is only a ridiculous, irrational belief in sacrificing to this fictitious God.

 

V: God is showing the benefits of mercy in this opportunity, that mercy given to the deserving is very productive in bringing about the good of all.

 

G: About 1 out of 130 US mostly Judeo-Christian citizens are in the prison system. That’s a higher percentage than any other nation on planet Earth. That best describes the “benefits” of God’s opportunistic mercy. It has NOT and does NOT work – does it?

 

V: Now if any sinner thought he had gone beyond God's ability to forgive, then that sinner would not only be unmotivated to reform, but also the world would be diminished as a result of not having one more person become a starlight of goodness in the world.

 

G: Again, the criteria of Christians being “better” does NOT exist in reality.

 

V: We cannot therefore imagine there is a limit to Jesus ability to settle the account of a sinner, no matter how bad his conduct had been. Jesus didn't take the punishments of such severity for mankind, just so that it wouldn't work.

 

G: Jesus and God’s batting averages are very low, V. Atheists are no more evil than the believers. “I believe” means “I don’t know” 100% of the time. Most Atheists don’t believe as we prefer to know. If something is not worth knowing, I’m not much interested.

 

V: This very point of trust is where we actually place faith in Jesus and say in our guilty ridden heart, Jesus can save me and it will work. Jesus does not lie and Jesus can be trusted to come through for me. This is the faith we must have and the hope we promote to sinners.

 

G: Matthew 9:18-25 While Jesus spoke, there came a certain ruler who worshipped him, saying, my daughter is dead, but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. Jesus said the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. They laughed at him. Jesus went in, took her by the hand, and the maid arose.

 

If the ruler's daughter was dead, then, Jesus lied. If she was not dead, then Jesus performed no miracle. C. Dennnis McKinsey

 

Matthew 10:5-6 Jesus said: Go not into the way of the pagan (Catholic) gentiles (KJV), but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 

What? Jesus loves Jews more than others? Did Jesus lie?

 

Matthew 12:40 The Son of Man (Jesus) will be three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth.

 

Was Jesus actually put in the heart of the Earth? How can “Good Friday” afternoon to before sunrise Sunday morning qualify for 3 days and 3 nights? Did Jesus lie?

 

Luke 19:27 Jesus said: But My enemies, who would not have Me reign over them, bring them before Me and slay them.

 

If the no-name King Jesus referred to in his parable is Himself, did Jesus lie?

If you don’t accept Jesus you will suffer Eternal Torment is the parallel teaching.

 

Revelation 2:23 Jesus (The Son of Man) said: I will also kill her children... KJV

 

Did Jesus lie here in Rev 2:23?

Mark 10:18 Jesus said: Why do you call Me good. No one is good but God alone.

 

Did Jesus lie about himself not being good?

 

Luke 10:19-20 Jesus said: I have given you the power to tread on serpents and scorpions and upon the full force of the enemy and nothing will hurt you.

 

Did Jesus lie?

 

Mark 10:26-27 Who can be saved? Jesus said: For human-beings, it is impossible…

 

Obviously, all Christian believers believe Jesus to be a liar here - as they try to convert you.

 

Mark 16:15 Preach the gospel to every creature…

 

Does this qualify to be a lie?

 

John 3:13 Jesus said: No one has gone up to Heaven except the One who has come down from Heaven, The Son of Man.

 

But, when Jesus said this, Jesus, Himself, had not yet gone up to Heaven. If Jesus, Himself, is the only one to have gone up to Heaven, doesn’t that contradict and eliminate Enoch’s going up to Heaven in Genesis 5:22-24 and Elijah’s going up to Heaven in a whirlwind in II Kings 2:11 and Angels going up and down, to and from Heaven on "Jacob’s Ladder" in Genesis 28:12? So, did Jesus Christ utter a falsehood here? Did Jesus get caught in documenting another lie?

 

John 4:22 Jesus said: You people worship what you do not understand. We worship what we understand, because salvation is of the Jews. KJV

 

What? Salvation is a racial thing? Didn't Jesus make a racial statement? Or, did Jesus lie?

 

John 5:21-22 As God raises the dead and gives life, so does the Son give life to whomever He wishes. Nor does God judge anyone, but He has given all judgment to His Son.

 

God judges no one? Did Jesus lie?

 

John 8:15 & 12:47 Jesus said: I judge no man. KJV

 

Which lie do you prefer?

 

John 5:34 Jesus said: I do not accept testimony from a human being… Catholic

 

If you pray to Jesus, then you must judge that Jesus lied about not accepting human testimony.

 

Matthew 5:29 Jesus said: If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out, throw it away.

 

Did Jesus lie?

 

John 5:31 Jesus said: If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. KJV

 

Does Jesus admit to being a liar?

 

John 5:41 Jesus said: I do not accept human praise… Catholic

 

Why would you praise Jesus Christ unless you view that Jesus lied about not accepting human praise?

 

John 5:45 Jesus said: I will not accuse you. The one who will accuse you is Moses…

 

Is there an honest, truthful Christian who would say that Jesus lied about this? Would you, V?

 

You said, Sir V: “Jesus does not lie and Jesus can be trusted to come through for me.” Do you now still hold to that claim?

 

V: You know the woman who was the plaintiff in Roe vs Wade, which made it legal to get abortions? I forget her real name, but at any rate she became a Christian and accepted Jesus as her savior. Even though she was facing the just punishments of so many millions of innocent deaths, Jesus took that punishment for her.

 

G: Because you now know that Jesus is documented Bible C&V to have lied about things, are you using questionable dogma to support your claim?

 

V: She stated that after she renounced her past, that she felt the weight of the world lift off her shoulders. Not only that there was joy in heaven and among those Christians who accepted her as a reinvented soul.

 

G: Come on, V. There is no way you could KNOW that. You can believe, visualize and fantasize that you can walk through walls. You absolutely KNOW that does not make it so. Here’s the kicker – if it is not so, it is a lie.

 

V: The world has become a better place because one more person has adorned themselves with the light of goodness. So you see that condemnation of evil is not the actual quest of the Christian message, but the offering of hope to sinners and the propagation of goodness in the world through the offering of HOPE and Salvation.

 

G: V, with all due respect, you are preaching and preachers are such great liars.

V: For the world to actually become a better place, the sinner needs to recognize his mistakes and turn away from them. This is why Christianity focuses on sin in the sinner and calls him to repentance.

 

G: But, in reality, it is all based on lies – and, it does not work.

 

V: Then he needs the Hope of forgiveness so that he will be encouraged to continue on his quest of being an agent of goodness. This is where Jesus comes in for the sinner. In all respects it is a consistent and inter-working message of repentance and forgiveness toward the goal of filling the earth with those who exhibit and extend the love of God toward all humanity.

 

G: You can debate me, V – but, do NOT preach to me!

Gary: Eternal Torment is a misrepresentation?

Vatic: Gary, if we are to trust the words attributed to Jesus, and I think in this case we can, then it is patent that Jesus spoke of various degrees of punishments for sinners according to the severity of their offense. He spoke of "Greater condemnation", "Lesser condemnation", "required more stripes", "required fewer stripes", etc etc.. So yes, it is a misrepresentation of God to suggest a person who sinned little will be dealt the same punishments as those who did great offenses. God is just and we must trust that basic principle. Nevertheless we see from punishment examples, that it is severe and includes mortality. This is why even the mildest sinner needs salvation in order to repeal, if nothing more than his mortality, and thus be raised to eternal life as Jesus was.

 

I personally have no desire to share Eternity with those lying, deceiving, tyrannical characters not the clergy / believers who promote them.

BTW Gary, in reviewing my own responses to you, I saw I was just as guilty of digressions from the topic as I stated you were. So if you would, by virtue of this admission, please excuse me.

 

G: No sweat, V.

V: As you see, I did refocus on the topic and left the asides for other times. And as promised, I did get back to you on your message and I hope you will acknowledge that, and believe it, now that you have seen it, even though you might think it out of character for a Christian to do such, as you stated.

 

G: You are appreciated because - I luvs ya man!

 

Regards, Gary DeVaney

 

 

 

 

 

Any corrections, feedback or comments?

 

Thank You!

 

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